Lacanche Threads 11-20

Lacanche Ranges Part 20

Lacanche range part 20
Posted by gymnsocr (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 9:10

I want to know what vents you have. I just purchased a black cluny
from the reserve list and want adequate ventilation. I haven't seen a
stainless unit I like so I will probably use a wall mount liner but
they don't seem that deep.
Please help, the cabinet guy need my dimensions.

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Follow-Up Postings:

RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: claybabe (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 9:52

Ventahood makes a black, 9 or 18 inch (height) hood in all sizes, so
maybe a 42"?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 9:54

The Cluny gas and conventional electric ovens are 16" wide, 12" high
and 18" deep. The Cluny convection oven is 16" wide, 12" high and 16"
deep. The ovens in all of the other ranges (Cormatin, Volnay/Vougeot,
Fontenay, Sully, etc.) are the same height and depth but they are 21"
wide.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: MarinGirl (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 11:23

Thanks VeloDoug -- Do any of you Cluny owners feel that the width is
too tight? I don't want to give up the WC, but this is a rather
permanent decision and I don't want to later wish I had larger ovens
(no space for wall ovens). Any recommendations?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 13:39

orchidluvr - I'm interested, too, in what kind of venting arrangement
doesn't work for you.
The four burners on our Cormatin (which should be here by the end of
the month :-) are the same as the four outer burners on a Cluny, with
a maximum total output of approximately 40,000 BTU. Based on the good
experience of a friend with a cooktop of about the same capacity under
a 21" deep, under-cabinet, 300 CFM Vent-A-Hood, we're planning to
install a 24" deep, wall-mount, 300 CFM VAH over our Cormatin. In
addition to our friend's good experience with her VAH, there's also
the fact that a 6" duct for a 300 CFM single blower will be easy to
run, but an 8" duct for a 600 CFM dual blower would be a nightmare.
There is no room for the equivalent rectangular duct or two 6" ducts
either.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 16:54

Here is the reference link to Part 19. You can also visit the blog set
up by NancyUSA to see all archived Lacanche threads which will be
posted next.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lacanche Ranges Part 19

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Lacanche Blogspot
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 16:57

Here are the archived threads and other helpful links. Thanks again, Nancy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lacanche blogspot

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Cormatin Arriving Monday
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 18:18

According to the bestselling book, French women don't get fat, but it
seems that French ranges do. The specifications for the Cormatin say
the gross weight is 105 kg. or 233 lb. The email from AC letting me
know that the range left the factory said it weighs about 350 lb. The
woman at the shipper who just called to schedule the delivery for
Monday said it weighs about 428 lb. I shudder to think what it's going
to weigh by the time the trucker is done with it :-)
(I suspect that the specifications are based on minimal packaging for
domestic delivery, not for overseas shipping. And part of the
discrepancy between the last two weights is doubtless because we
ordered both the grill plate and the griddle plate and they were to be
shipped with the range.)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 19:53

Hey, everyone -
Wow, what was *I* looking at last night when I wrote the dimensions of
my Cluny ovens? I took a trip to the Twilight Zone, I think. Sorry! Or
course, everyone that corrected me is absolutely correct.

Andrea - I did a test run today with my Aunt Ruth's Chocolate chip
cookies (my personal favorites) and the electric oven performed
extremely well, IMO. The cookies were browned nicely and evenly after
their 10 minute bake time. The convection baked them a bit browner,
which is to be expected.

Marin - I find that I am using the "high power, fast" option more than
I need the "simmer" option so far, so the big burner is working really
well for me!

Now, about my VENT!!!

I added up the power of the Cluny cooktop and came up with approx.
60,000 BTU (maybe I was in the Twilight Zone on this too?). I decided
to get the 46" Vent-a-Hood liner, (39 inches plus 3 inches on each
side) sucking 600 CFM.

I explained to my carpenter that the range was wider than the hood
(because of the WC). He built the decorative wood hood perfectly, IMO!
We even measured how tall I am (5'7") and made the hood 31" off the
cooktop so I wouldn't hit my head on it - and it is such a close
measurement that I can feel my hair skim past when I bend over the
range.

I realize this is a bit too high off the cooktop, but I really did
think that the VAH was up to the task. The run to the outdoors takes a
90 degree angle, and is right out the wall behind the range. It
operates *very* quietly, too - I am pleased with that.

The problem comes in when I use my grill, which I have used more than
I thought I would so far. I think the capture area is sufficient - but
I think the VAH is just overwhelmed, and I do get some smoke escaping
from the front. It isn't *bad*, but it's enough that I am concerned. I
think I need to experiment with it a bit more. It worked better when I
pushed the range in closer to the wall - but it is now 3.5 inches from
the wall, and when I get the island spacer, it will just be in another
half inch!

I was grilling Lamb chops marinated in wine and olive oil with
rosemary last night - so it was at least a nice smell! But a smell
nontheless!

The upshot is that I wish I had gotten the 900 CFM VAH.

Suggestions or comments would be welcome indeed!!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: vedaZu (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 21:30

Ooh, I just ordered the 600 cfm VAH--but I don't intend to grill much
in the house. (I own yet another antique--a natural gas grill that is
under my screened porch). Do you think the 600 will be enough for
everything but the grilling?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 22:41

Hi, vedaZu!
Oh yes, I think that it handles everything else quite nicely. It could
be that 90 degree turn it takes through the wall is effecting
performance, too. I need to do more analysis on my problem, really.

We have never done much grilling in the house, it was always such a
mess to clean it up on the Jenn Aire. But this is a bit different.
It's not as much of a mess. And my DH refuses to get a gas grill - he
is a charcoal purist. And you can guess how much *I* like to start
charcoal...

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Thu, Apr 21, 05 at 23:35

Orchidluvr: 60,000 BTU is correct for the Cluny. And 600 CFM is
consistent with the usual recommendations - except that they often say
more CFM are needed for grilling.
But you may have another issue. The VAH liner is 22-1/2" deep. With
the range at the recommended distance from the wall, the fronts of the
front burners are about 26-1/2" from the wall. Unless the liner is
mounted well out from the wall it will not completely cover the
burners and I wouldn't be surprised if some smoke escaped.

Our friend with a 21" deep 300 CFM VAH generously permitted me to
perform an experiment practically guaranteed to fill her kitchen with
smoke. I turned on her hood and let it run for a couple of minutes.
Then I put a 10" square cast iron griddle on a 12,000 BTU back burner
running wide open. When it was very very hot I put one 6 oz. untrimmed
(fatty) chuck steak on the griddle. There was a lot of smoke but it
was very localized and it was almost all captured by the hood. The
second side smoked only a little less and again the hood did its job.
We put the steak in the oven at 450º to finish and fired up a front
12,000 BTU burner for the second steak. (We used a second clean
griddle.) Some of the smoke was captured by the hood but a lot of it
escaped into the kitchen. It was so bad that we abandoned the
experiment after searing the first side and did the second side of the
steak on the back burner.

The lessons I came away with from this one limited experiment are that
coverage is very important and that a single blower VAH can move a lot
of air in a limited area.

BTW, I do not normally cook steaks that way. I sear two of them in an
11" cast iron skillet over a medium high flame on an 11,000 BTU burner
and there is very little smoke. I'm confident we'll be OK with the
grill plate on our Cormatin as long as we keep the meat at the back
and the veggies at the front.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 1:32

orchidluvr,
Thanks so much for the cookie test. "browner", I'm not worried about.
Evenness, I was. "Browner" can get "browner" with a little more time,
but scorched can never be scraped off.
That's the problem with my own oven. I've got a gas convection & the
center cookies will brown up, but the outside ones will still be raw.
If I cook to the outside cookies, then the inner ones are burnt. I'm
not only rotating my sheets, but pulling off the "done" ones & putting
the rest back in. Frankly, I've given it. The oven stinks. It's even
heating I'm looking for, not the speed, and if I can get that without
the convection component, then I don't have a problem. Does the
electric oven hold its heat for even cooking? It sounds like it does.

Does that mean I have a decision. Heck no!
Was that one gas, one electric?

Thanks again for running the test,
-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 1:47

OK- here is the poop on our VAH liner, installed over our Cluny last
fall AFTER the infamous contractor-selected, too shallow Dacor liner
failed to take the smoke out of the kitchen:
We grill a lot. We then bought the VAH # BH4446PSLB, a 46 3/8" liner
that offers 1200 CFM's. We brought the custom wood hood out to a 29"
depth & the VAH itself is 23" with another 4" on ss trim (from the
original impossible 16" depth imposed on us). The liner is 39"high off
the rangetop and the wood hood is 35" up for head clearance and this
presents no problem in the draw.
We LOVE this VAH. It is powerful and quiet.

I urge you not to underbuy CFM's, especially if you grill.
Zolablue first put us on to VAH last year, but the contractor fought
us on it & guaranteed we would be happy with his routine Dacor
installation. As some of you will remember, he had to remove it after
it failed to remove smoke from the kitchen. He has made repeated
repairs to the damage done to the wood hoodbox for months now and it
still doesn't look right. Buy strong, be happy!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Gayleski (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 10:17

I'm planning to purchase a Cluny within the next year as part of a
kitchen remodel, and will be using propane (natural gas isn't
available in our area). Do the Lacanche ranges need to be modified in
some way to use propane instead of natural gas? Forgive my ignorance,
but I've been working on an ancient Kenmore electric for the past 15+
years.
This will be quite the upgrade! :-)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: DeirdreLouisville (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 10:42

You can order them either way, at no additional charge (at least if
you import, AC may charge an additional fee for LP, they charge more
for everything, including shipping, than the Europeans do).

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: which07 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 11:52

Hey!
Almost 2 years after delivery, our Cluny is now uncrated and resting
in the kitchen! It's the first time I've seen it unwrapped in person
and I can't believe it! Everything is looking good, no damage, and
installation should be completed today.

What a day!

Chris

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 13:12

AC does not charge extra for LP.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 13:21

Andrea:
I believe I had the same decision as you: gas + electric vs. gas +
electric convection. I really worked this one over, but ended up going
with the standard electric in my Cluny. Stan at AC gently suggested
that the oven size might not be large enough to get the full advantage
of the convection; ie, convection is a better choice in Lacanche's
larger oven models, if you are getting only one electric oven. I
understood from speaking with him that turning a pan might likely be
necessary even with convection in a Cluny. Additionally, you lose 2"
in depth so that you can't use a half sheet pan for baking, and unlike
my former gas convection, you cannot turn it on and off -- it is
always on.
So for these several reasons, I went with gas + regular electric. As
you mentioned, gas can be pretty crummy/uneven for baking, yet I loved
the roasts in my Viking gas oven. Now if you were considering 2 larger
ovens, or did not care about gas, I think electric + electric
convection is an excellent choice -- it was recommended to me by
Diane, the cookbook author who owns a Sully, I believe: after using a
commercial Garland w/gas, she went with electric + elec. convection,
and does not miss the gas. I grew up with 2 electric wall ovens, and
they never let me down for baking, and my mom's roasts were always
super. But after having roasted for 10 years in a gas oven, I was
afraid to give that up -- after all, that is the first reason I looked
at Lacanche, to have ovens w/ different fuels! FYI: I am still not up
and running, so this is theory and research, not actual practice.

VeloDoug and AnnaLF: thanks for the terrific specific details and
experiments. I'm glad that this thread has the benefit of your
scientific observation and measurements -- together, you have answered
all my CFM and depth of hood ?s. I did purchase the 600 cfm 40" VAH
liner, so I am going to check on whether we can position it a couple
of inches out from the wall; perhaps w/ another piece of ducting or
coupling for the existing VAH ducting, I can do this. Like Doug and
Orchidluvr, I did my calculations based on the btu's of the cooktop,
and did not add for grilling. B/c I did not grill on my old Viking,
whose cooktop had a lot of joints and was a bear to clean, I did not
consider that I might very well grill more on the Lacanche...

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Congrats!
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 13:24

Which/Chris: Congratulations on getting your Cluny into the kitchen
UNSCATHED! Boy, am I looking forward to the day when my green one is
actually IN the kitchen.
(I'm the sad sack whose Cluny tipped over in the garage...)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: pamela1 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 13:46

kitchengirl--
How is the shipping of your replacement parts going? Do you have an
expected ETA?
We're eager for you to be made whole!
Pamela

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 14:02

Chris:
Congratulations! What color are you now so happily becoming better
acquainted with?
Yes, kitchengirl, I echo pamela's wish that you come together soon!
And Velo Doug - delivery should be any day now - the excitement
builds.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 22:17

Thanks for the comments everyone. Yes, I think that is part of the
problem, the grilling too far to the front, although the front burners
are fully covered by the hood. I don't have a problem, either, if I
grill chicken breasts. Just a problem with the more fatty foods.
I have to also add to my observations about the electric oven. I put a
Costco chicken pot pie in the electric oven tonight, at 375 for 90
minutes. I put it on the top rack, and didn't bother to turn it at all
during that time.

It came out evenly browned - no problems at all.

I'm happy!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: gymnsocr (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 22:24

Who makes a 24 or 27 inch deep hood?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: NancyUSA (My Page) on Fri, Apr 22, 05 at 23:30

AnnaLeeF,
Thanks for posting the link, I picked up Part 19

Nancy

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 9:37

"Who makes a 24 or 27 inch deep hood?"
Vent-A-Hood makes both. I'm pretty sure that Viking and and most of
the "pro-style" range manufacturers that also sell hoods make them in
both depths too. It's easy to check on the web.

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Cormatin Arriving Monday
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 9:42

If all goes according to plan, the Cormatin will be delivered on
Monday, a couple of BIG friends will come over Monday night to help me
get it up the steps and into the corner of the dining room, and we'll
have it up and running in the old kitchen in a week or two.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 11:14

kitchengirl,
Thanks for the info. I've already measured my pans and I don't think
they'll fit in the convection. That doesn't worry me too much b/c I
see that the range comes with some bakeware. I don't need to bake
cakes to feed armies. I do have an appointment in Woodinville today &
while I don't know what's going to happen, I am going to pack a box of
some of my favorites. If the opportunity arises, I am going to see how
they fit. I am sorry to hear about your tipping experience. That made
me wince. I, too, am interested in how your repairs are going.
orchidluvr,
This baking information is really helpful. From one who's been smitten
by these ranges, I find this kind of diary about the baking & cooking
experience by someone who's preparing daily meals very helpful. This
might be as close to a demonstration as many of us "explorers" get
before purchase. Frankly, I'm grateful for your patience in writing up
your experiences.

Stan's set up an appointment for us in Woodinville today. I haven't
spoken to him, DH has & he didn't ask what was going to happen today.
All I know is that I blocked out a two hour period on my calendar. I'm
going to pack a box of my favorite cook & bakeware & whip up a quickie
batch of cookie dough. This is just in case the opportunity arises to
actually watch something bake. I don't know if it will & hubby didn't
ask. rats on him. I've been on pins & needles since Monday. It stinks
so bad when you can't slow down enough at work to call a company
during business hours to even ask basic questions, much less respond
to their responses during business hours. *sigh* (deep breath. The job
is going to buy you a new kitchen. You have to work for your kitchen.)

-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: MarinGirl (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 11:52

Hi everyone -- I am really getting a lot out of this forum. I am still
trying to decide between a Sully with the larger ovens and a Cluny +
WC. I don't have room for a wall oven, so this is it. I suppose if I
got the Sully I could install a separate warming drawer, but I really
like the idea of a WC. I just don't want to end up short on oven size.
I wish they made a Sully/Cluny combo (one larger and one smaller
oven)! Thanks for all of your input!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 13:59

MarinGirl -- my thoughts exactly! I was just thinking about the
perfect Lacanche (for me)..... Sully gas oven, Cluny elec/convection
oven, WC. No such thing exists!
If $$$ were no option, it would be Sully+WC. But yesterday, I thought
to myself what if we decide to move in a few years? Perhaps I should
just go for a Vougeot (gas oven) + a separate Viking (or other brand)
electric convection oven (30")?

I could "what if" myself to death on this dang Lacanche decision. By
the way, my family and friends think I'm nuts to even consider
Lacanche. But I am defying them. Ha!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 14:03

VeloDoug -- Let us know how your install goes. Good luck on Monday!
Andrea345 -- Good luck at your Lacanche appt today! You work to hard.
You don't work at Microsoft do you? :-) Take the time to enjoy your
new kitchen, OK (when it's done)? Let us know how it goes today, k?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 19:57

Nancy,
Gee- I forgot I could add that post right into the blog!
BTW, how is you kitchen coming? We are waiting for pictures.
MarinGirl: From the AC catalogue:
"Many custom ranges are available for order to fulfill your unique
requirements. (Shown here is the Cluny 1400.) Your Lacanche range can
be as individual as you are."

Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too with a custom Sully/Cluny
combo - it's worth checking into!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 20:16

I think a Sully/Cluny sounds like a create combo and would probably be
popular. I have the Sully ovens and am rarely in the position where I
require all the width. But there are those times when I do want the
space, so I'm glad I have it.
I do a lot of roasting in my gas oven with wonderful results. I do
baking, too. I also do a lot of baking in my electric convection. I
find I have to turn things more frequently in this convection than I
ever did in my Thermador convection. If I don't turn muffins, for
example, they turn out as "severely pointed off to one side" (ie, back
of the oven!) coneheads! Doesn't hurt taste, though!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 23, 05 at 21:06

okey doke guys. Stan was fabulous. I might not know how to make
initial contact very well, but I am dot sharp on my appointments and
so was he. I can't recommend setting an appointment highly enough.
This is the way to go. We were there for a bit over an hour while he
showed us around & went over the ovens & finishes with us.
The showroom was very nice & filled with the colors & varieties of the
LaCanches. There was a Caumartin there ready to ship out to a cooking
school. I did whip up my cookie dough before going, but they don't
have a plumbed one. It stayed in the car. No biggie. DH didn't ask,
didn't know to ask, so we didn't know. The info you guys are giving me
about the cooking experience is sufficient and means a lot to me. I
did take in some of my cookware, but they had some standard cookware
within the units themselves. I was glad I brought my 13" frying pans &
some pots. DH limited what I could bring, so some items, like my 16"
pizza pan, I didn't try.

The Cluny oven is nothing to sneeze at folks. It appears that the oven
bottom is formed on the electric so that there's a natural convection
going on. The pastry sheet fits over the oven rack and will do very
nicely for cookies. They did have a half-sheet pan in one of the Cluny
ovens, so that fits. My long french loaf pans won't fit, but my
standard 9x13 cake pan will do very nicely. They had a big roasting
pan in a Cluny oven. It'll do fine as well. Turkey - I don't cook over
a 12 lb. turkey so it was moot for me & my case, two ovens in a 40"
range, the space was very generous. I understand some larger turkies
will fit in there, but I guess my point is that I'm not trying to fit
professionally sized baking sheets or long cake pans into the things.
The ovens are deep. My current Jenn-Aire Piece o'Ick is only 17" deep,
but 23" wide. These babies look like they'll heat up & hold it. That's
the feedback I'm getting from people about their baking.

DH was satisfied with the broiler. I guess the two elements, or four
pass, made him feel fine that his needs are met. I don't know anything
about broilers besides using one, so I probably have the technical
description wrong. I asked him what he thought & it got his approval.
We are definite now, it's a standard electric & the second one's gonna
be a gas.

The cooktop is fabulous. I brought two of my larger pans & a pot and
everything felt comfortable. Not only that, but hubby's eyes popped
when he found he wouldn't have to choose between the big simmer plate
of the Traditional or all the trivets of the Classique b/c the
Classique comes with a cast iron simmer plate which covers two
burners. He loves the idea that he can have adjustable or cumulative
heat when he wants it on a plate, or have his individual trivets back.
Moving pots around the top was easy as the grill was continuous. That
center burner is pretty open, so only larger pans can cover the hole
area (I still am not confident about calling the names of things). The
burner spacing was staggered & felt comfortable with these items on
there. We would have been able to put two more pots, or pans on there
no problem.

The Cluny oven size - again, I might have to give up a 16" pizza pan
and my french loaf pans are not gonna make it (no loss really. I don't
know why I bought them.), but the size will really cover all my baking
& cooking needs. I need two ovens & am not going to remodel this
kitchen for space. Finishes & appliances, yes, but not space. My
revolt against "bigger" as "better" started in my MIL's kitchen in
Vicenza, Italy. Everything has a place in kitchens smaller than the
size of a walk-in closet there. Efficiency & workable spaces where
space is at a premium. DH & I decided that would be our design goal.
Not only that, but when I stop to look at how I bake, or what DH
cooks, we need surface for large pans, but not for large baking
sheets. I don't cook industrially sized wide cakes. My largest cake
would be an angel food cake & that's tall, not wide. Otherwise, it's
9x13.

If you've got the space to go with the warming oven, go for it. It
won't work for us. The horizontal plane would just be too large, the
scale of the piece would then be out of whack for the kitchen space
we've got. 40" is pushing it. Right now, I use my teensy convection
oven as a warming oven by putting a glass of water in there & setting
the temp on low. If you've got further questions about the Cluny oven
size, I took a tape measure to some of my bakeware one night this week
to look at what might have to go. Keep in mind 1" space around
everything, so 16" x 14" would be the max you'd want to go with, but
the Cluny oven is 18" deep & 16" wide. But another nice thing about
the oven shelves is that you can sort of dipsy-doodle the oven shelf
so the thing goes all the way to the back & supports a rack all the
way to the back of the oven. When I was measuring other vendors'
ovens, their racks are the limit of their space. They say they have a
cavity of x, y, or z, but the racks are sometimes much shorter than
the oven itself.

Art Culinaire has two trained repair guys on staff. Stan showed us
some very old models they use for parts, the enamel, while dirty, was
intact & looking good. The continuous stainless steel top of the
Classique will take a scrubbing, the brass, well, DH is already
excited about keeping that polished. I liked it as much mellowed &
neglected as shiny & new. Stan did mention that if you take the
Traditional's simmer plate off & put trivets over it, then clean up
might get tricky b/c that's not a continuous stainless steel top on
that model. But that enamel ain't gonna be coming off after you try to
scrub off dripped apple pie from the front of the oven.

I saw lots of crated pieces, maybe I saw one of yours.

Oh, those colors were lovely. The doors felt solid, the grates looked
ready to take a beating. I cannot wait now. Provencal Yellow Cluny
here I come.

-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 1:54

Thanks Pamela and AnnaLF: The necessary parts are ready to be shipped,
I'm just looking into locally re-plating my drawer knobs and oven
brackets before asking AC to ship the control panel and side panels,
with or without those plated pieces.
Orchidluvr: thanks for the even baking report. I am looking forward to
baking more once we are into our renovated house and my Cluny is "on".
I'm planning on baking my weekend breakfast goodies once I have an
electric oven AND doing them in the traditional smaller sizes, AnnaLF
(thinking of "French Women Don't Get Fat"), so that I don't have to
practice portion control by cutting my scone or muffin in half, as I
TRY to do with today's purchased baked goods!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 6:55

Andrea-
What a great experience! I'm glad you and DH got to go see them in
person. Now, I'll bet you can't wait to get your own!!
kitchengirl-
Thanks for the update on your progress. I know it will all work out,
even if it is a bit nerve-wracking getting there.

Chris...how's it going?!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: ahne (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 8:26

Congrats Andrea345!
Are you snapping up the Provencal Yellow Cluny on the reserve page?

I'm impressed with your 'test drive' -- you covered all the angles.
Thank you for posting your results.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 14:25

Andrea
I enjoyed your very complete account of your experience yesterday with
the Lacanche. If I decide on buying a Lacanche it will be based on the
information that everyone has shared on this forum.

Oops, I keep forgetting that I will also get to see AlbMom's range,
perhaps this coming week.

Now, has anyone thought of a custom Cormatin+1? I can't use more than
40 inches along the main wall of my kitchen and I do have room for an
oven stack along another wall. Is the downside here that the cooktop
is missing the large center burner on the Cluny?

In an ideal world I would be able to have the large ovened Lacanche in
blue, provencal yellow, or burgundy...an Advantium over an electric
convection oven...perhaps a Tri-vection and a Liebherr built-in 48"
Bio-fresh unit.

Now that I've found out that the Liebherrs will be at the Kitchen and
Bath shownext month, I'll finally be able to "touch" all of my
favorite appliances before we have to make the final decisions for our
new house. I didn't think it was going to be possible.

Again, thanks to all of you on these forums for providing all this info.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 15:19

Question...does the description Cluny +1 refer to a Cluny plus the
warming cabinet? That was my assumption, but now I'm not so sure after
looking at some European websites.
Why don't we just call it the Cluny 1400 if that's what we mean?

Also, is there a site anywhere that shows drawings of the tops? Is the
Simmer Plate the same as a French-Top...or is it a removable piece of
cast iron that can be replaced with a grate? I assumed that the simmer
plate was a narrow FrenchTop.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: KLB_2000 (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 15:32

Cam, I've got a price list that Art Culinaire sent with the brochure I
requested a while back (the last few months, prices should still be
correct). I'll scan it and email it along to you (since you've been
such a good source for Liebherr prices!). It includes a good look at
the range tops and various options, and of course prices.
I think a Cormatin +1 would be a Volnay, right?

Kelly

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: KLB_2000 (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 16:11

Andrea345--obviously making the appointment was the way to go.
I wasn't able to see color samples when I stopped in, although I did
see a provencal yellow cluny wrapped up on a crate. I think I love the
yellow ranges, but I can't quite figure out which shade of yellow it
is that I like--the provencal yellow or the bright yellow. Which shade
is the lacanche featured on the brochure cover (and website)? And what
about the Cormatin on page 11 and on the back cover of the brochure
(page 16)? They don't look quite as orangy as the provencal yellow,
but they don't quite look like bright yellow either. Maybe it's just
the lighting in the photos that is confusing me.

Andrea, another question, (since I expect you'll be buying soon!) what
are the sales tax implications for Washington residents? Think it is
different depending on whether you buy off the reserve list or have it
shipped from France?

Here is a link that might be useful: Lacanche Brochure

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 18:21

KLB...
Should I just get it over with and say, 'Duh'? about the Volnay being
the Cormatin+1. I was thinking...without thinking, obviously:)...about
how to get the largest oven they make with the warming cabinet. It
must be the Volnay, which is the same width as the Cluny.

Or, is it the Chambertin? which is 110 cm?

I think these photos are deceiving in size as well as color. The oven
in the Cormatin looks wider than in the Volnay, but I think it is just
deception now that I think of it. I know that photography lies because
light makes it so difficult to render color with accuracy.

So, I think you are right...the Volnay or Vouget would be my
choice...largest oven with the five burners. The drawings on the
brochure make it clear about the cooktop options.

Thanks for bearing with me, but the options are many and I can't see
them all side by side.

I would bet that the cover photo is the Provencal yellow. It makes me
think of sunflowers. The other yellow I would say is closer to lemons?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 19:29

gymsocr:
Keep forgetting to say CONGRATULATIONS on your new black Cluny! How
soon is it being delivered and is it going into a new or remodeled
kitchen? Did you decide on a hood yet?

AND Andrea, how cool to go with Provencial Yellow! It does look like
sunflowers!

Just noticed Shermorts picture post on the Lacanche owners "Design"
page showing use of a purchased Lacanche range "towel bar" on his/her
refrigerator as a pull. Looks cool!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 20:23

Yikes...Gymnsocr...yes! Congrats on your black Cluny!
Andrea...that yellow will be great! It'll make a stunning eyecatcher
in the kitchen!

Zola??? Where are you?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: gymnsocr (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 21:31

Thankyou Momto4kids. I am so excited about the range! I am rethinking
the whole kitchen decor because of it.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: which07 (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 21:48

Hi,
Our Cluny 1400 (left) is stainless with brass. It's hooked up , but
the VAH emerald hood isn't yet. It should be done tomorrow, but that
could slip. This is all part of our entire house remodel so it's just
one of a hundred details I'm trying to stay on top of. We should be
back in in about 2 weeks after 1 year of living with the in-laws. It
cannot get here soon enough.

I'll post photos soon.

Chris

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: erik_hammarlund (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 21:54

I'm just getting into the whole possibility of getting a Lacanche
after many years of assuming I'd get a stainless commercial-style
unit.
So, a few questions for the lacanchophiles out there...

How much of the extra cost is 'stove function' versus 'appearance'? I
hear lots of people talking about how wonderful they are to cook
on--any comparisons anywhere between Lacanches and other pro ranges?

Is there ANYWHERE online that will give me hard data on the Lacanche
tops taht are available? I'll be darned if I can find it, including on
the AC site. What do they look like? how hot are they? Who would
bother with an electric burner? And so on...

Similarly, I'm having a devil of a time simply finding data on the
stoves themselves. I know everyone here loves the Cluny--what's the
difference between taht an a Chateunef or Fontenay? And is it true
taht the ovens are extremely small?

Well, that's enough questinos for one email :) I look foreard to responses...

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 22:28

Erik
I'm fairly new here too, so I'm probably not the one to answer most of
your questions, but I also for some reason had trouble finding the
tops. At least the drawings of them are in plain view on their site at
the link below from the web brochure. I also found the UK link good
for comparison of the models and options.

http://www.lacanche.co.uk/pages/ranges.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Cooktop options

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Sun, Apr 24, 05 at 22:38

Eric:
Here is a link to the tech specs for the Cluny. I don't know how to
insert more than one link per message, but if you e-mail me (thru My
Page), I'll forward a technical specs e-mail on all the different
models to you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cluny specs

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: MarinGirl (My Page) on Mon, Apr 25, 05 at 0:58

Wow . . . just catching up on all of the developments!
Andrea -- Thank you so much for all of the valuable information from
your visit. What a great day it sounded like! I am curious why you
opted not to go with convection on the electric side. Did you see a
sample or picture of the lime green?

Momto4 -- I was wondering what you are cooking (and how much) when you
find that you are using the extra space of the Sully.

All -- since I admire your taste, what other kitchen appliances can
you recommend (I need to pick them all!)?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: gymnsocr (My Page) on Mon, Apr 25, 05 at 20:01

Erik,
I hope I like the Cluny as well or better than the Viking I had in my
prior home. I thought I would go with Wolf this time around but
couldn't fork out the cash because of the electronic controls on the
dual fuel. My other appliances all have electronic controls and it
doesn't bother me as much...
Marin,
I plan on getting a Subzero, Miele dishwasher and Scotsman icemaker. I
am probably going with VAH based on the forum if I can get a liner
that is 24"-27" deep.

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It's here!
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Mon, Apr 25, 05 at 21:40

Our Cormatin arrived today, right on schedule. It's all unpacked and
residing in the corner of the dining room awaiting installation in the
old kitchen. (Neither of us is willing to wait for the new kitchen to
start using it.) The delivery, unpacking and moving went without a
hitch. Once we had all the protective film off, the drawer and door
back in place, and the burners and grates installed, DW and our friend
who helped me move it and I just stood there looking at it. Nobody
said a word for a long time. Finally, DW walked over to it, gave it a
little pat, and turned back to face us with a big smile on her face. I
looked at our friend. He was smiling. I suspect I was too. We all
started talking at the same. And what we were all talking about is how
we're going to have a hard time building a kitchen nice enough to be a
home for the Lacanche.
There'll be a lot more to talk about, but I just wanted to let you
know our Cormatin is here, and thank everyone for encouraging us to
take the plunge.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Mon, Apr 25, 05 at 23:20

And we are smiling, too, just reading your words, Doug.
Congratulations on your safely delivered Cormatin!
DH commented three times in a row as we cooked dinner tonight that he
absolutely loves the Lacanche and it is the very best purchase for our
home ever. There is almost an emotional bond with this machine that is
hard to describe or even justify, but we are starting to just accept
the joy!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Mon, Apr 25, 05 at 23:20

Velo...
gotta tell ya...I've got tears in my eyes.

Congrats.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: MarinGirl (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 0:36

VeloDoug --
Congratulations! The research, hand-wringing, budget-stretching
process is so involved it is exciting to hear the news as yours
actually arrives! Please share the details as you get to know your new
Cormatin. (p.s. DH's screen name is Veloboy -- sounds like you have
something in common).

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 0:54

AZdreamhome,
No, I'm in telecomm, but my husband does support MS, so the lives they
are busy & our current kitchen is icky. We want a space which will
bring us back to doing what we love. Our house is our home & so we do
enjoy the spaces once they're renovated. This kitchen is officially
the Last Room in the house which hasn't been gutted.
Momto4Kids,
Can't wait is right. DH & I discussed if we could give up the
dishwasher & go ahead & move the Cluny in before we even find a
designer. We're not. No one likes stacked dirty dishes & we wouldn't
be able to drop the DW front (can anyone say FP double dishwasher as
the next purchase?), but we will be going ahead & putting in our
deposit just b/c of the color 1/2 off (buys us back some of our sales
tax).

Andrea (geez, it's weird to respond to my own name.)
Nope, not going to go for the reserve. LaCanche delivers on time & we
don't want to put one in storage for as long as the design, demo &
installation phases take. We'll just order on the standard lead time.
We drool over it, but we'll be getting the same pricing, we just won't
have it sitting in our garage.

CamNewMexico,
The information of owners is what's helped me make my decision. Check
out orchidluvr's comments about baking on the standard electric above.
There's other notes throughout the thread about roasting & using the
cooktops. I, personally, needed to know how the baking without
convection was b/c I didn't want to lose 2" in the back of a Cluny for
the convection fan and she was kind enough to run some tests. Other
owners with functioning ovens & ranges - the information really helps.

I think (I'm no expert) that if an oven holds its heat well, then
convection cooking in an electric oven helps more with loading up the
oven, shortening cooking time & using less heat. Convection in a gas
oven equals a really bad mess in my past experience, so I wasn't
worried about not having THAT option. It was really only the electric
convection I was worried about losing. For myself, I'm not going to do
more than two to three racks of cookies at a time, or a two layer
cake, or a few loaves of bread. If the oven holds its heat well, then
I won't need to worry about soggy on the inside, burnt on the outside.

Also, that big central burner is the 18K burner. That's my husband's
power burner. He's fine with the two 11Ks & the single 15K, but he
wants that 18K for the sear. Again, though, it really depends upon
your cooking & I wasn't looking at large single ovens. That said, the
spec sheet I have does show that the Cormatin can come with the 18K
burner + (1) 11K + the simmer 5K, so I think you can get that. Also,
the Cluny 1400 is the Cluny plus the warming oven. At least, that's
what it's called on the spec sheet I received from Art Culinaire. If
you go on their website, you can submit an email request for pricing &
options sheets. It also has the standard & optional tops you're
looking for. The simmer plate was a cast iron plate which covers two
of the burners & can be used like the French top but probably wouldn't
hold the heat as long as the French top would if the heat were turned
off. That French top is like 1/2" thick or something crazy. I picked
it up & almost blacked my eye when I went all tippy. DH & Stan rushed
over & helped me unscramble, but I'd gotten what I was looking for.
What's that thing weigh? Lots. It'll hold the heat & distribute it.
We're fine going with the cast iron simmer plate which comes with the
Cluny Classique b/c DH is all excited about "22K when the 2 11s are
on." or "one side hot, one not". uh, okey doke.

KLB,
Sorry it's taken me awhile to get back here. The Provencal yellow
seems to be the one featured on the brochure cover, but it does change
in the light. I took their sample front out into daylight & it
changed. I love working with yellow, so it was just another wonderful
aspect of the color for me. It's a red based yellow instead of a blue
based yellow ("warmer" & not as "cool"). One friend of mine called it
"road sign". heh. It's definitely a "Hello". The lighter yellow, while
not pastel, is more lemony, bluer, no hint of red to it at all, no
shade into the orange. I didn't check it in outside light as it didn't
interest me too much. Page 11 is the other yellow as is the one on p.
16.

Sales tax - I expect to pay it. Another reason we're putting the
deposit down before the end of this month's sale with color 1/2 off. I
don't think the shipping from France would have anything to do with
it.

MarinGirl, I didn't see the lime green, but I did see the "aubergine"
- purple - oh my - lovely purple. Sort of a royal purple. Lovely,
lovely color. I wish we were purple people, just because that's such a
wonderful color on that range. I didn't go with the electric
convection b/c I didn't want to lose the rear space in the Cluny oven
(2" for electric convection). Orchidluvr's cookie test above really
gave me what I needed to know - that the electric oven will have even
heat with at least two sheets of cookies in it.

erik,
I know how you feel trying to navigate where to find the info. It
doesn't help that their site lacks hyperlinks to other than the
pictures. AnaLee, thanks for keeping those specs on line. There is a
stainless steel LaCanche if ss is your flavor. It looked mighty
lovely. Before we gave into the LaCanche, I was looking at a 48"
Bluestar to give me the two ovens I need to have for what I want to do
in my kitchen. The Bluestar does have (2) 22K burners instead of (1)
18K burner. It priced at $6400 and an add'l 8" of horizontal space. We
didn't need 6 burners & my husband could live with one burner greater
than 17K & I didn't need humongous baking space. So, the base Cluny of
$6750 was only $350 more. Bluestar will paint, but I have heard that
that paint will come off with baked on applepie stuff in an attempt to
scrub the gunk off. That ruled out painting for me. If we weren't
going to go with a 48" Bluestar, then the 36" either stovetop or
single oven range was the next option. The 36" cooktop priced at
$2100, but the double ovens I was looking at were over $4K. The 36"
range was $4200 & the single wall ovens I was looking at ranged from
$2100 - $4300.

So, I was losing some power & one add'l burner @ 22K, but I could get
the styling I liked in a more efficient use of space in a stove which
met our needs at very approximately close to the same $$ I was looking
at.

I'm not sure what electric burner you're referring to. Their broiler
is a two element, four pass electric broiler, not infrared. All their
burners are gas.

I haven't cooked on one, but the specs for the LaCanche are such that
they've got one burner stronger than the Wolf or Viking. If you go
with a burner configuration of (2) 15K burners instead of one, then
it'll put out approximately the same power. The LaCanche has a smaller
footprint in all its configurations than American manufacturers. The
DCS would have comparable power, depending upon the burner
configurations. Pricing with DCS, Wolf, Bluestar & Viking are going to
be in the same ballpark. The LaCanche from Art Culinaire is plumbed
for U.S. gas lines & the convection will function on the American
frequency of 60 Hz instead of the European standard of 50. I don't
know that a European convection won't work on the U.S. 60Hz.

If you email Art Culinaire from their website, they will send the
specs on the boxes. I don't know why they have their website set up
the way they do, but many of their other pages aren't hyperlinked
together. Saving bandwidth? is a possibility.

Also, I didn't like all the electronically programmed settings on the
Miele and Gaggeneau wall ovens. I might engineer wireless switches for
a living, but that doesn't mean I know how to operate my VCR. I wasn't
too happy about the idea of the programmed cook settings & have read
new owners confess to bad outcomes on this website. The idea that I'd
need to memorize a 42 page manual to operate my oven was not something
I wanted to add to my life. My needs were reduced to the following:
(2) ovens which hold their heat well. (1) burner > 17K BTU. (1) good
simmer burner. Less than, or equal to 48" of horizontal space. 36"
preferred. Color that doesn't wash off.

VeloDoug,
Congratulations. Maybe I will just get my Cluny shipped early and damn
the dishwasher. *oh* my husband just reminded me that we have no
exhaust. Zilch. Zip. Niente. Nada. Okay, we can open our front door.

Okay AnnaLee,
You've done so much keeping up with these threads, I hate to ask you,
but please just let us know what you cooked & how it was done. I love
reading that kind of information.

Thanks all,
-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: anna_chosak (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 9:03

Just popping in to say congrats to all the new Lacanche owners! Wow,
you guys did a lot of impressive research. I pretty just drooled and
pointed and made "want" noises.
Also reporting that this past weekend we had our biggest party since
installing our Cluny--a Passover seder for 17 people. The Cluny
performed beautifully. We had cooked some stuff ahead of time, so on
Sunday afternoon, we had short rib stew and sweet potato tsimmes
rewarming in the electric oven while the turkey roasted in the gas
oven, matzoh ball soup simmering at the back while the asparagus was
steamed in a big pot and the green beans were cooked in the wok. I'd
made the gefilte fish a day ahead so it was plated and served cold,
but it was so nice to have the room to steam two batches at a time
when I made it. The pecan-ginger torte came out of the electric oven
beautifully browned; I used one 8" and one 9" springform pan, and they
both fit on the same rack so I didn't have to switch them around
during baking. Everyone in the family raved about the food, and we
could tell them quite honestly that it was a pleasure to do it.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AnnaLeeF (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 9:06

Erik - I apologize for inserting a "c" in your name upstream. I should
quit typing late at night when my error rate seems to be much higher.
Wish GW had spell check to help out with big goofs.
Andrea345, we have a gas oven and the other oven in our Cluny is
electric convection. Since we are still in the middle of remodeling,
we have not been high volume bakers so far. Also, I was waiting for
the kitchen portion to be finished to buy and store a new mixer, as
our ancient Sunbeam burned out on stiff cookie dough. I will probably
do that soon as soon as I return from traveling this week so that I
can start baking bread again instead of using my Breadman.

We roast chicken and other meats in the gas oven with wonderful
results. I have only used the convection oven a handful of times so
far, but we've been pleased with the results. The baking trays that
come with the Cluny are neat to use. We are trying to cut down on our
waistlines, so we are not routine bakers of cakes and pies. Cookies
are a soft spot for us and they have been fine so far. I have not done
any turning of trays during baking yet.

We are the heavy grillers on the LC thread. We so frequently use the
grillplate that it seems silly to store it away. Everything tastes
great on this grill, but we primarily grill steaks, thick veal chops,
a lot of fresh fish, shrimp, scallops and marinated vegetables. We
enjoy pasta frequently and are still amazed at how fast large pots of
water boil while our sauces simmer on the low burner.

We have done zero entertaining since installation - no dinner parties
- since our contractor has left us in the lurch with a 2/3's finished
remodel. So I cannot tell you how well the Cluny performs with high
volume output.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 11:17

Marin, Andrea-
Usually when I find I "need" the extra space, I'm doing "over the top"
things, like roasting to 9 lb chickens, in pans, side by side (which I
actually do quite frequently on weekends because we all love roasted
chicken). Or I'm making volumes of cookies or cupcakes (4 kids,
birthdays, class parties...you get the idea...!).

But for the typical day-to-day, I'm certain the Clunys would have been
more than adequate.

So far, we've had a couple of dinners where we've had 3-5 people
actually cooking at once for about 10-20 people. Plenty of room,
burners were no issue, loaded up the ovens and WCs. Worked well.

We've also had a couple of catered events for 25-50 people where the
range was underutilized, IMHO. Although one of the caterers is dying
to come back now that she "gets it" and really load up this range.

As for just us, on weekends especially, I will fix anything anyone
wants even if all 6 of us want something different. So, quite often,
I'm at or near capacity on the cooktop. I leave dinner plates and
bowls in one of the WCs and turn it on for all meals. I tend to use
the other WC for food staging. And, yes, I do have to hold food even
for just family meals or because DH gets home late.

I have tried just about everything at least once. I still need to do
more work with grilling and the griddle. The only thing I find myself
doing more now than in my previous convection oven is turning muffins
or cupcakes around frequently to avoid the "lean." There might even be
a solution to that which I haven't had time to figure out.

DH is just so pleased at how quickly he can boil water! He's still
coming to terms with the power (translate...he's still a little scared
of it!). But he doesn't get near the practice I get!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 12:39

Thanks everyone for the great posts last night. Lots and lots of
interesting information.
I went to the only appliance store yesterday where they don't duck
under their desks when they see me coming to look at the Wolf 36"
range again. Conclusion? I just don't like that wide oven on the
ground where I would have to open and close that monstrous door
bending over at may I say a very awkward angle. While I could use the
door for a weight machine, I'm not sure the angle would help me in the
long run since this is probably a purchase that will last me into my
dotage. The blue inside is beautiful, though.

I looked at the Miele ovens for the first time, thinking I could use
their oven in the wall stack to assist my Vouget or Volnay. The door
was featherlite and the dual rotisserie apparatus was lovely. I could
imagine all of those chickens dripping their grease in those pans.

Question to all convection owners: does the air blow grease all around
the ovens? and is it a nightmare to wipe up? I certainly think it
would be if the oven were on the ground. Hands and knees time.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 12:58

Cam-I've also roasted my chickens in the convection oven and I can
say, no, I've not noticed it to be any messier than in the gas
oven...and that's not to say it's messy at all, because it just isn't.
I haven't seen that as a concern.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Claire_de_Luna (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 13:02

CamNewMexico, I have a Gagganeau convection oven as back-up to my
Lacanche gas oven. The last greasy thing I made using convection was a
half-sheet pan of bacon, which did splatter on the inside. Since the
Gagganeau is counter-height, it's no problem wiping down the inside
while it's still a little warm. My friends have a Miele, which I might
have bought as I was impressed with their oven. I opted for a
side-opening door, which makes getting to the inside even better since
I don't have to reach across an oven door for access.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: VeloDoug (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 13:03

If it's anything like our friend's convection wall oven it's not a
hurricane in there, but just a gentle breeze.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 14:14

Great! This is what I wanted to hear about the convection. I had a
Dacor convection for a few years, but apparently it never worked so I
seldom used it. When I set it to pure convection my chicken was deep
brown on the outside and raw inside and I could only bake two racks of
cookies and had to change racks halfway through.
I came to the conclusion that convection was just hype. A friend had
the same problem with the same oven. I have since learned that I
should have called service because that is not typical. My stupidity
there and I won't make that mistake again.

Thanks for the reports. I covet that Gagganau, Claire de Luna, but the
price of that oven with the Lacanche makes me think I have tipped over
into madness. On the other hand, these appliances will last way longer
than my car and I didn't have such concerns when I forked over the
money. Our minds do tricks on us, huh?

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 21:05

Hi Andrea -
Just to let you know that what you said above isn't quite what I reported:

"Orchidluvr's cookie test above really gave me what I needed to know -
that the electric oven will have even heat with at least two sheets of
cookies in it."

I ran the test with one cookie sheet in the convection side, and one
in the non-convection side. I didn't try two in the non-convection
side. In my former oven, that would get me done on top, less done
underneath. (The former oven's convection feature used to help with
that problem.) I will have to try it and let you know what happens.
Hopefully tomorrow.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 0:15

orchidluvr,
Thanks so much for coming back & clarifying. Please ask your family to
forgive my insistence that you bake another batch of cookies for my
curiosity. It's actually kind of important for me to know how that
oven loads up. I'd expect maybe the top rack to finish faster, but
that would be about it. I wouldn't expect a front to back unevenness.
That's what I see as a nasty side-effect of not holding the heat well.
I really appreciate it.

anna, Momto4Kids, thanks for telling me how you do your baking.
AnnaLee, the electric convection would probably fit a 9x13 pan,
wouldn't it? Thanks for coming back guys.

-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 3:29

Anna Chosak: Your Passover seder meal sounds wonderful! My mouth is
watering, yet it's time for bed (except for the gefilte fish)!
I love all these cooking details -- it's getting me primed for my
cooking debut a month from now, after our move-in!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: anna_chosak (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 9:09

Kitchengirl: Why do you think I made my own gefilte fish? I hate the
stuff from the jars! Homemade,though, done with a mix of fresh
flounder and smoke whitefish, and served with a dollop of wasabi
sauce--now that's a whole different story. ;-)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 15:07

So, Anna,
How does one cook gefilte fish (on their Cluny)? My parents used to
eat it for weekend lunches when I was growing up; I think it was a
taste acquired from their cosmopolitan days living in late 1940-50's
Manhattan.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: anna_chosak (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 15:43

Kitchengirl, I used the recipe below and cooked it in bamboo steamers
lined with cabbage leaves and set over the wok and a regular pot. I
skipped the sauce, though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Smoked whitefish gefilte fish
from epicurious.com

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Wed, Apr 27, 05 at 23:14

Hi, Andrea -
Okay, test number 2. Oatmeal cookies.

I put two sheets of cookies in the regular electric oven. When the
cookies were done, the top rack cookies were nicely browned. The
bottom sheet cookies were not browned - I put them on the top rack,
and they browned after about 5 minutes.

I then put a sheet of cookies in the regular oven on the lower rack,
with only one sheet this time. Those cookies browned very nicely and
evenly.

The regular oven is performing just like any other oven I've ever had.
The top sheet prevents the bottom sheet from browning when there are
two cookie sheets in the oven at once. The browning that occurs is
perfectly even on the top rack - but the bottom rack lags behind. This
is where convection really helps, where two cookies sheets will brown
at once.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: kitchengirl (My Page) on Thu, Apr 28, 05 at 0:12

Anna, Thanks very much for the recipe! I have saved it for future use
after our move.
Orchidluvr: I looked back thru this thread, but did not find whether
you had commented on baking 2 sheets of cookies in your Cluny
convection, as compared to your non-convection. Thanks!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: anna_chosak (My Page) on Thu, Apr 28, 05 at 8:37

KG: You're welcome. Enjoy.
Orchidluvr's results have been much the same as mine. I usually just
bake one sheet of cookies at a time for this reason; takes a little
longer that way, but they're always perfectly browned.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Thu, Apr 28, 05 at 8:48

orchidluvr,
Thank you sooo much! I have to fight with my oven b/c one rack or two
racks of cookies, the outer cookies always seem to get browner than
the inner ones, or the back ones browner than the front. I've got
hot-spots in my oven. Anna, thanks for the confirmation.
Kitchengirl, what about "This is where convection really helps, where
two cookies sheets will brown at once."

Thanks again guys!
-a

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Well, I went and did it
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 29, 05 at 22:56

Has anyone designed a kitchen around a range before? We asked, and
were sent, the sample color tile we requested - Provencal Yellow.
Delivery date - unguessed at b/c we don't even want them to put the
order in with the factory - yet.
We've got one more designer to interview, but we have our range now.
DH has very modern tastes (can anyone say "Italian Laminate", in red?)
and I'm traditional. We'll just have to wait & see how this all turns
out. "Design around this," is what comes to my mind.

Went with the standard electric without convection b/c I wanted the
oven space and the electric sounds like it performs like an oven ought
to. Thank you so much orchidluvr for the bake tests. Anna for the
confirmation and everyone else for letting us know what cooking on one
is like. I solemnly do swear to return the favor to someone else who
might not have the opportunity to cook on one before they buy.

Thanks guys,
-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Momto4Kids (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 9:16

I actually did change my "range wall" thoughts...well, truthfully, the
whole direction of the kitchen once I fell in love with and purchased
my Lacanche. After deciding on the range, I felt I wanted the wall it
resides on to be "all about the range" and nothing else. So, I came up
with the alcove concept. But that was a long wall, so it houses the
"baking center" and the pantry, too. Then I just moved around the
kitchen from there. It all is in keeping with the "traditional" feel
of the house as a whole...so it all worked out nicely for us.
My kitchen is in the gallery...
Good luck with your design!!
Deb

Here is a link that might be useful: Momto4Kids' Kitchen

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: KLB_2000 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 10:06

Andrea345, I remember reading the posts from one of the other
provencal yellow-Lacanche owners, about the special (albeit rewarding)
challenges of desiging the kitchen around that color. Armed with that
color chip, I'm sure you'll be able to talk your DH out of that red
italian laminate! You've probably already looked through all the
provencal yellow kitchen pictures on this site, but I've linked to one
of my favorites--Spacific's kitchen
You might want to take a look at the May issue of Seattle Homes and
Lifestyles--one of the featured kitchens seems to have been designed
around a red Lacanche--they do become the stars of the show, I guess!

(and thanks for your input on the yellows...I think my monitor display
and/or the lighting in the photos must just be playing tricks on
me....when I look at the version of the light yellow on the main
lacanche.com site--I love it, but when I look at light yellow on the
US site, it looks too lemony. Guess I'll need to make a visit to see
the colors in person)

Kelly

Here is a link that might be useful: Spacific's kitchen

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 13:08

KLB
I love that Provencal Yellow. Since I live in NM and have a collection
of Talavera dishes that are displayed and used every day...that color
is the color of the glaze on the pottery, I am sure. The other yellow
seems to go better with my few pieces of Italian pottery.

Though the burgundy doesn't match anything...I certainly think it
would look wonderful as the center of that kitchen. On the other hand,
I love the ivory, and blues, and the green. I guess that only leaves
out ss, black, and white.

Hmmmmm. At least I've eliminated three. :)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 13:53

I love the red although I've never seen one in person that that could
change my opinion. I wish I was brave enough to go with a colored
Lacanche. I'm probably sticking with black (which I do like) just for
resale value. Last year we sold our home I thought we would finish
raising our young kids in. So I never say "forever" anymore. Which
leads me back to resale value and the "safe" (really kind of boring
approach). Again, I love the colors and wish I was brave enough to go
with one. I am going to the Kitchen & Bath show in a couple of weeks.
I have a feeling I'm going to see a lot of color there so this might
change my mind. We shall see!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 14:04

AZ
I'm going to Las Vegas, too. I hope you're right about the color, but
I'm afraid it will only be Viking who will represent that niche....or
else the French stoves out of my league...or the AGA...which doesn't
work for me.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: KLB_2000 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 14:13

There is a red Aga at one of the local appliance stores that sways me
everytime I go in there (which is pretty frequently, since I'm still
on the lookout for that 24" Liebherr!).
AZDreamkitchen, I think the colored Lacanches are so beautiful that so
long as the color works in the general scheme of your new kitchen, it
couldn't possibly be unsafe from a resale perspective. Lots of people
think they must have stainless steel, but a colored Lacanche will win
them over! Plus, all the lacanche color options seem pretty solid and
traditional--a lavendar range might be a harder sell. That said, I do
actually like both the black and white ranges. Too bad white is a
"color" (upcharge).

Maybe you'll want to take the range with you if you move? Probably
will leave a pretty big hole to fill, though!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: vedaZu (My Page) on Sat, Apr 30, 05 at 19:14

I think one must consider the colors surrounding the range. Take a
door from your cabinets, or something similar with you when you go to
look at the range. When I first saw Portuguese blue up close, it was a
little shocking--but next to ivory cabinets, it looks really
wonderful.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Sun, May 1, 05 at 6:23

Momto4Kids,
I am glad we made this decision early b/c it does give us that focal
point, the thing to which all other elements must relate. We went back
to the stone yard today & choices have changed b/c of the color. That
kitchen of yours is gorgeous. It looks like it can serve 4 kids up at
one sitting. Wow!
KLB,
Yep, if you've got the opportunity, take the time. It's worth it for
sure b/c even talking about the yellow is not the same as the
experience. Those colors have depth & character to them. Thanks for
posting Spacific's kitchen thread. I need to go back & look at white
tiles again. We saw some against the chip today. I even considered
marble countertops, but most of the marbles we looked at just didn't
work. It's very specific whites which work with that yellow. This is
going to be really, really interesting.

Oh, AZdreamhome, the red is really something special. The great thing
is, you design the kitchen & if you have to sell, the buyer walks into
the decorated kitchen. Either they'll love it, or they won't, but
it'll be the same even with stainless steel or black. Both those
colors are fabulous too, but if they're not what's calling you, then
don't pass up the opportunity for the Mystery Buyers. They could be
like me, someone who walks in & says, "Wow!" and draws 'em in faster.
You're not going to be able to appeal to everyone else's senses. I
shrug at stainless steel, I yawn at black. I've seen many "fabulous"
kitchens I'd gut in a heartbeat. The question is more of will the
buyers hate it enough to walk away from good design & good bones.
Hardly. It's just like the countertop, or the flooring, not everyone's
gonna like what you've chosen, others will. There is no way to make
anything everyone will love and if you go through this with the idea
someone else is going to gut it, why bother? There's the depreciation
in value, the change in tastes, it'll all catch up at sales time. But
if you make a space you enjoy as "home", chances are someone else
won't be following their purchase with a gut.

vedaZu,
I am soooo glad I haven't even gotten to the cabinet stage. I looked
at some today with the chip in hand and a lot of options, like the
countertop material, just don't do justice to the color. It's gonna
make a lot of decisions much easier b/c the answer is obviously "yes"
or "no".

-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: clayladylei (My Page) on Sun, May 1, 05 at 9:19

OOOOOOHHHHHNOOOOOOOOOO
I order my Cluny 1400 yesterday.. I have totally redesigned my kitchen
around this stove.. I have truly tipped into madness.. Now.. I am
nervous.. I am not even sure I have anywhere to put a microwave..
Please.. help.. I've gone over the edge.. But, what a way ta go!!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Sun, May 1, 05 at 12:10

clayladylei,
One of the things I've done is used tracing paper atop a basic grid of
my kitchen space to figure out how things will look on both overhead &
in elevation. I use a pencil lead which is easily erasable, so I can
manage my doodles. What kind of things do you need your microwave for?
That's really gonna drive the size of the microwave. We have a honker
sized one from 1984, but that's b/c it's always been used as a second
oven. I'm not even sure I want a microwave now, but if I get one,
it'll be small - reheating leftovers & popping popcorn.
I can't recommend the two paper solution to space planning highly
enough. It's low tech & when you're not worried about trying to draft
something to take to the manufacturers, it's "good enough". It's
helped me plan how many drawers I need versus shelves and
approximately how many cabinets I need. I made a list of all the
items, from silverware to Saran Wrap that I'm going to keep in the
kitchen and allotted them space within the numbered overhead cabinets.
Then when I do the front elevation, I give them their drawer or shelf
location. It's helped me pare down the appliances I'll be keeping,
made me look at what tools I use for what purpose so I've broken them
up into categories of baking, chopping & cooking. Until I decided on
my range, though, I tossed my space planning up in the air. Now that
I've got my range decision made, it'll limit my options and I'm kind
of glad about that b/c there's fewer options to consider.

Cluny 1400 - whew. What color? heh
-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Sun, May 1, 05 at 13:51

clayladylei -- great name and way to go on the Cluny 1400!! What
color? What color? What about your cooktop configuration? Congrats on
your purchase!
I think if I go with my heart it would be a red Lacanche (either
Sully+1 or Cluny 1400). After reading the above posts, I'm now leaning
back towards red. I need to call Art Culinere tomorrow (stop stalling)
and get the red paint chip. Plus, I need to see one of these Lacanches
in person once and for all!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: clayladylei (My Page) on Sun, May 1, 05 at 15:39

I wanted a color.. BUT.. I "let" DH pick the color.. and he went with
Black.. which is fine with me.. because.. it's like a man in a Tux..
always looks good.. I would have LOVED to go with a color.. but it's
all good.. just thankful that I have the stove...
Andrea345, thanks for the suggestion about the tracing paper.. I will
try that .. sounds just what I need to do..
I'm sooo excited!!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 20:32

Andrea345
I am so very impressed with your list of all items and their placement
in your "kitchen" elevations. I can tell, I have way too much stuff to
even consider your idea...but it is inspirational nonetheless. The
elevation with tracing paper has helped me "see" my kitchen, though,
so I couldn't agree more.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 20:50

I spoke to Tom today at AC. They will be sending me the DVD &
red/black paint chips (plus a quote on the Cluny 1400 Classique).
Since I will be home in the SF Bay Area (end of June thru early
August), I asked if they have reference customers I could go visit
there. I remember someone on this board that lives in the Bay Area but
can't remember her name now. So if anyone knows of anyone in the Bay
Area, please let me know. Thanks!
I find it humorous that the house I found to sublet for July in the
Bay Area is owned by a French woman who is subletting it out due to
the fact she is going home to France for the Summer!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: ela0427 (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 21:02

I saw a recent show on HGTV that involved a kitchen remodel around a
red vintage O'keefe&Merritt (I think). It was so so beautiful and so
unique among all the stainless guys out there. If such a lovely stove
was in a house that I was looking at esp. a Lacanche, i would see it
as a HUGE bonus. Red and yellow are beautiful!! My local store has an
aubergine La Cornue on sale for $20k something and it is amazing and
HUGE. Ahhh to dream in color.....

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: orchidluvr (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 21:25

Okay, I have another baking report.
Today was DD's birthday, so I decided to make her a cake from scratch.
I put both cake pans on the top rack in the regular (non-convection)
oven. I have to tell you that I am very pleased with the results. Each
was browned beautifully, and I was quite surprised to see that they
did not raise up higher in the middle of the pans, which usually
happened in my old range. The layers came out even from one end to the
other, perfect for DD's little birthday cake!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 22:49

orchidluvr,
whoo-hoo! That is even heat & held well. I can't tell you how much I
loved to hear that - and you risked a birthday cake as well. I love
scratch cake, hate the boxed stuff, but my husband prefers the boxed
b/c I've lost my "touch." It's time for me to begin practicing again.
Happy birthday to your daughter!
AZdreamhome - uh, I can hear the chant now: "RED. RED. RED. RED." heh.
The black is lovely too. The form of the range itself is a large part
of its attractiveness, but those colors you can't get anywhere else,
that's what's magnifique.

CAMNewMexico -
Heavens, I didn't itemize every little thing. I just listed the
following items in a table.... let's see if this will work: Not
really. Okay, there's three columns: cabinet# - shelf / drawer # -
item

And my item list is:
dining silverware
knives
saran wrap
aluminum foil
graters
pots & lids
pans & lids
cookie sheets
pizza stone
pizza sheet
13x9 cake pans
round cake pans
square cake pans
paper plates
mixer
kitchen cleaning supplies
flour
sugar
misc. flours
misc. sugars
baking soda
chocolate
nuts
G.F. grill
toaster
tupperware
coffee mugs
mixing bowls
stemware - casual
stemware - formal
plates
big bowls
bowls
serving bowl
dessert plates
coffee plates
garbage
pans hang from rack
cooking utenxils
cereal
canned goods
big pots
wok
spices
misc. baking supplies
dried vegetables
dish towels
rolling pins
measuring cups
blender
toaster oven
pie dish
misc. baking dishes
oils & vinegars
crackers
hot cereal boxes

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rats - I hit submit too early
Posted by: Andrea345 (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 22:53

clayladylei,
It makes it fun to play with your elevations & overhead view. I've
been playing with the look of drawers per cabinet, or flat surfaces.
What's it look like with 3 drawer cabinets next to four drawer
cabinets, etc.
My plan is once I have the space planned, then drawing it out using
acetate & putting watercolor paper under the acetate & playing with
color & the elevations. I find it much more flexible than the software
program I've got.

-a

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: Bosche (My Page) on Mon, May 2, 05 at 23:47

AZ- You are welcome to drop by my Portola Valley home when you are in
the Bay Area to see my black Fontenay.
Amy

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Tue, May 3, 05 at 2:03

Hi Bosche -- as a matter of fact I will be at a going-away party in
Portola Valley on June 25th! I grew up in Palo Alto and moved from San
Carlos last August. We have a couple of good friends in Portola and I
love any reason to come visit -- it's so beautiful! I've always
admired your kitchen (and the Lacanche, of course) but never put 2+2
together to realize you were right there in PV. Thanks for the invite
-- I'd actually really love to come see your Fontenay. How cool!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20 (2)
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Tue, May 3, 05 at 2:14

You know, either way....black or red...I'm so confident we will end up
loving the range either color! I think the red is calling me to remind
me of the red sports car I bought way back when. You know, the cop
magnet car. Now I drive a nice, safe tan-ish (read: boring) color SUV.
Perhaps purchasing a red Lacanche is a reaction to some sort of
midlife crisis I've been unaware of...until now?! Going back to my
youth? :-)

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: nocalgirl (My Page) on Tue, May 3, 05 at 18:32

AZdreamhome- I will also have my black Cluny 1400 up and running in
Menlo Park by the time of your trip. We are due to be finished with
our remodel during the first week of June (!) and I would love to have
a visitor. Amy was kind enough to let me visit her stunning Portola
Valley home when I was agonizing over my choice, which was well over a
year ago. My Lacanche has been sitting in my mother's garage since
June 2004, waiting paitently. I grew up in Menlo Park and lived in San
Carlos before moving to MP a year and half ago. It sounds like we
would have a lot to talk about!
Rachel

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: AZdreamhome (My Page) on Tue, May 3, 05 at 19:04

Oh cool -- two Lacanches to see! Thanks for the invite Rachel. I'm
really looking forward to this. I received my official quote (sales
order) from AC today. Since they do not charge sales tax, the Cluny
1400 (red with 1/2 off color) amounts to $967 "more" than what I was
going to order (Wolf duel fuel 48" + wolf warming drawer + sales tax,
this is with builder discount). Can you see me trying to justify my
sales purchase?
I won't be placing my order until I see the red paint chip and visit
"real" Lacanches. Thanks to Amy and Rachel, I now have something to
see!

Rachel -- I cannot believe you have had your Lacanche since June 04.
You are one patient girl. Good luck with finishing your remodel!

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: CamNewMexico (My Page) on Tue, May 3, 05 at 23:41

Bosche
I only know you by the photos of your kitchen on NancyUSA's site. The
proportions in your kitchen are as good as it gets. It is an elegant,
fuctional space with lovely details...from the dog bowl to the windows
with the views. Thanks so much for being so generous with photos.

And the black Lacanche is perfect there.

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: clayladylei (My Page) on Wed, May 4, 05 at 20:37

I have a question.. I am just sick.. I had asked my KD if I had room
in my kitchen between the sink and the stove.. OHHHH everybody said
yes..
Today, my framers asked me something and we started measuring.. we
discovered there is only about 2.5 feet between the sink and the
stove.. So, if someone is at the sink.. they can't be at the stove.. I
the stove doors are down.. we are nearly bumping into the cabinets..
How much room do i need between the sink and the stove..
Please help.. I am just sick over this..
Clayladylei

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RE: Lacanche range part 20
Posted by: gymnsocr (My Page) on Wed, May 4, 05 at 20:46

AnnaLee,
Please tell me about your first Dacor hood that was replaced. How many
cfm's was it. I have found a 48", 1200 cfm, Dacor hood at a good price
and plan to build a mantel around it unless yours was similar.

Thanks.